The Big Exit Show: Selling TAPPwater, TAPPing into Success Magnus’ Journey from Start-up to Big Exit


🎧Our conversation with Magnus reveals his journey from celebrating Tap Water’s first online sale to the eventual acquisition by Blue Water Group. With a deep dive into the strategies that led to 80% of their sales being organic and 20-30% of new customers coming through referrals.
We’ll discuss the pivotal moments like launching on Amazon, emphasizing convenience over sustainability, and the importance of hiring adaptable problem-solvers for a mission-oriented startup.

During our interview with Magnus we talked about:

  • The Power of Organic Growth
  • The Art of Selling Your Business
  • Navigating the Sale of a Company
  • Referral Marketing as a Growth Lever

As always – hosted by Peak’s very own co-founder and managing partner Johan van Mil and Anke Huiskes founder & managing partner of NP-Hard Ventures 🕺🏻🕺🏼

You can find the episode on your favourite podcast platform, linked below. And, if you are really interested in listening to the big exit of specific founders – reach out to us so we can invite them for the next episode!

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You can find the transcribed version of the episode below:

Starting a company that’s easy, keep on growing a company, that’s harder. But selling your company, well, that’s a whole different story. And in the Big Exit Show, we lift the curtain of secrecy around selling businesses by learning from ambitious and successful founders who’ve also been on that roller coaster. Our host, Anke from MPHard, and I Johan van Mil, from Peak. We help you on this exciting journey to learn. 

And in this episode, we have a guest who is actually based in Spain, now sitting at his mobile cabin. So that’s funny to hear, soon to be jumping on the surfboard again, probably. But Magnus Jurn is a serial entrepreneur. He started a lot of companies, both as an investor, but also as a non-exec. And served as a CEO and founder of the company of TAPP Water, which was acquired by Blue Water Group. Prior to this, Magnus was a CEO and founder of different companies. 

For example, he started Golden Gecko, which was acquired by DMI in 2014. But he was also 17 years active as a pioneer with all kinds of mobile services. In total, he started more than seven companies, including companies as Drift, Bollagat, Lecce Mobile, GeoMe, and as mentioned, TAPP Mobile, which we’re gonna zoom in on right now. Welcome, Magnus, welcome to the show. 

Magnus: Thank you for having me. Super excited. 

Johan: Cool. So tell me how, especially about TAPPOrder, because you started different companies, right? How did you come to the idea of starting TAPP Order? 

Magnus: So yes, I’ve been extremely fortunate in the past with having several successful startups in the tech space. And after selling Golden Gecko and also EncomVA, which was co-founded with my dad around 2013, 2014. I was planning on just being semi-retiring and just investing and helping other startups. But as you spend a lot of time with other entrepreneurs and creative people, we constantly came up with ideas and I got really excited about doing something in the impact space. And particularly because I love the ocean, I love beaches and it was just so sad to see like the amount of plastic and waste that washed up all the time.

Also living in Spain since 2008, I saw that everybody was consuming bottled water. So I got really interested in that topic and we explored various different business startups. And we thought, okay, if we’re gonna have the biggest possible impact, we need to get households to stop buying bottled water and replace it with something else. And that’s how we came up with the company TAPPWater.

As my background is really tech and human-centric design and so on, we started by just testing lots of products. So we tested over 30 different products that were in the consumer market. We did trials of different kinds. And after a lot of the tests, we found one that actually seemed to work. And we tested it with a hundred people. And this was called TAPP One, which was around 2006, 2007. And all the people loved it and said, wow, this is life-changing. Suddenly I don’t have to buy bottled water. 

The Beginning

So based on this, we decided to start a company, raise a little bit of money, and develop our own products from scratch. And so that was the very beginning. We thought, I mean, and this is one of the challenges, obviously, as entrepreneurs, you have to be crazy optimistic about everything. You have to believe that you can change the world. You have to believe that you can change human behavior and that you can do things that nobody has done before. 

And we thought: all right, if we launch a product that saves people money, which our products do (people spend on average in Spain, like 300, 350 euros per year on bottled water), they carry home a thousand kilos of water every year. And with our product, you don’t have to carry home any bottled water anymore. It was also starting to become obvious that bottled water is probably not that healthy, considering there are microplastics and hormone disruptors. 

And then finally, it’s bad for the planet. So we thought, okay, we have four strong benefits like this, it’s gonna be easy. So we projected that we’re gonna get 100,000 customers within two years. That was definitely not the case. I think we probably hit like 5,000 after a couple of years. But the thing is, changing human behavior is really hard. We also saw: everybody says that they want to live eco-friendly lives but in reality, when it comes to the choice of continuing to buy a product that you’ve been used to buying and changing that behaviour… It’s hard.

Then the third thing, my background was from software. And producing hardware is really hard, like you have to design things that are going to be used 20 30 times per day with high water pressure. They have to be shipped across the world because we wanted to make the products in Europe but realized it was very hard. So they’re developed in China, which means it takes long lead times to develop, ship and then get them into the warehouse. And then you realize after a couple of months that there are issues and you have to start over again. So it’s been a challenging journey to say the least. But that’s the beginning. 

Johan: I can imagine Magnus. You mentioned something really interesting, that you want to grow within two years to 100,000 appliances sold, right? But you probably had a few really pivotal moments, right? A few big breakthroughs that gained traction in your business. Can you mention a few that really stood out looking back to the growth phase? 

The Growth Phase

Magnus: I mean, it’s fascinating because especially when you’re a direct consumer, like you really do celebrate every win. So the first sale that came through on our website, we were like, boom, whoa! So our little team of four people, everybody was jumping up and down in the office. So that kind of thing happened, I think. And then we celebrated once we got to 100. 

And then you celebrate when you get to a 1.000. But one of the really interesting things early on was that we noticed that it was fairly easy to build organic traffic in this space. So about 80% of our sales were organic from our website. The other big pivotal moment was when we launched a product on Amazon. And although it took a couple of months, it’s actually quite quickly. This was after one and a half years, something like that. So that’s also where we started to see strong growth.

And then a third thing was we realized that the sustainability message that we had built the idea around just didn’t resonate with consumers. So we changed it to focus on convenience and cost savings. And that made a huge difference in terms of advertising. Like suddenly people went from just clicking to buying the products. 

Anke: And that probably also changed the messaging, like in your SEO campaigns. You also learned that it’s a different type of customer that purchased the product. 

Magnus: Yes. And then another thing that’s a pivotal moment is when you have a large enough base to start asking your customers to become sellers themselves. That actually had a really big impact. Because I think we had like 20 to 30 percent of all new customers came from referrals and they still do. So we’re still at those numbers. And obviously, that doesn’t really help. When you have a hundred customers, it just doesn’t help much. 

Anke: Hmm. 

Magnus: But when you have five files and then 10 files, then suddenly that makes a big impact on an annual basis. 

Anke: When you started this company, you had a certain angle in mind. Was this company like, I want to bring this IPO or I want to always keep it private or I want to sell it, I want to turn this into a lifestyle business at some point? What was the idea when you started this company? Because it’s definitely a different kind of company, I think, compared to the previous tech businesses. 

Magnus: Hmm. So I don’t really believe in selling the company or being acquired as an end goal. It’s like building a great business and whatever you want to do will happen. So that was kind of our end goal. What we did say though, is that we really wanted to build something that was big enough to be continue with whomever. Like if we sold it, that it would sustain itself. Because one of the challenges and specifically in B2C, or in any business, is that a lot of companies get acquired and then after a year they get shut down. Because it’s just not a big enough business for the buyer. We considered, for example, if we wanted Unilever to be our buyer or Nestle or someone like that. 

You need to have significant enough numbers to make it interesting for them because it has to become a billion-dollar business within a few years. Otherwise, it just doesn’t make any sense for them to focus on. So, in that sense, we had really big ambitions from the very beginning. Because we knew that we had to get to that stage if we wanted to do something with the big companies. And otherwise, we would just continue to build this on our own.

If you look at one of them, obviously as being Swedish, one of the inspiring entrepreneurs for me was Ingvar Kamprad. And it took him at least 10 years before it was a strong business, before he got beyond the first door. So it’s okay that things take time as well, I think. I think as entrepreneurs, we’re often very impatient. But in this case, we have time to make it grow. 

Anke: And maybe to that point, because you’ve been doing this multiple times, what helped you? Because you’ve been going through growing pains. Was it easier this time around? Because you had a kind of thick skin already? 

Lessons Learned From Previous Experiences

Magnus: No, I don’t think it ever gets easier. Maybe also because you increase the barrier. You put bigger and bigger targets on yourself. So it’s never going to get easier. But I mean, certain things get easier, things you really get to understand. Like the importance of having great people, like really, really focusing on hiring and selecting the people. That was a huge focus area for us. And I think that really helped from the very beginning.

But then, because it was also the first time I did something in hardware, we really tried to bring in specialists in the hardware space. But we found that that’s really difficult in Europe because there are just not many people. We just don’t do much consumer hardware. So to find experienced people in that space that have been successful was very, very hard. 

And that has had a big negative impact on us. So that’s the piece that has taken the longest time for us. To understand the processes, to make sure that we get the quality in production and all of these things. 

Johan: You mentioned hiring, right? I think it’s a big learning that a lot of founders have, right? Especially if they start a second or even third, and in your case, even a seventh company, is to hire stronger people. What were you looking for? What are the key characteristics you were looking for, but also what are the things that you’re not looking for? How do you select the right people? 

Selecting The Right Team

Magnus: Yeah, I mean one thing is, yeah, so one thing is the criteria. So I think we have very strong criteria. That people have proven themselves and are able to be creative and problem solvers. You really want problem solvers. You want people who can solve things on their own that are not dependent on their manager, or that go to me as the CEO. That has always been a supercritical thing. And both problem solvers individually and problem solvers as team members. So that’s been one of the critical questions that we’ve asked.

This could also mean that they came from a big company background, but also having worked in startups, you can get people from both types om companies. But it is a challenge as well. If you hire people that have worked in corporates, they’re used to having a certain support structure and it’s very difficult for them to adapt in the beginning. So they’re used to having a professional HR advisor, to have processes in place, to have people that can do everything for them. And when you’re in a startup, you want people that can do everything themselves.

If you hire people from bigger companies they’re used to having a lot of agencies that do all the work. But, in a startup, ideally you want people that are used to hiring freelancers to do individual tasks. So you need to do the logo. Great, I get someone on Fiverr. They will do it for $50. Boom. And the next thing, is ads. Boom. So those kind of things.

The other thing I would say is just about the volume of candidates. So that’s been a key learning as well. The more candidates, the more interviews you do, and the greater quality you get. So I think we’ve always been striving to get a minimum of a hundred and ideally 200 candidates per roll before we review them.

And we’ve been lucky enough, when you’re in the space that is impact-oriented, you do get a lot more candidates. People today really want to work in these kinds of environments, so we definitely get a lot more applicants than you would if you were an app developer for example. Because that’s just a very different business. 

Anke: And the fact that you’ve been doing this like a successful serial entrepreneur, it’s probably also easier to find a great talent, because people want to learn from other successful people. So I can imagine that also helps over the years. 

Magnus: Yeah, that’s true. That’s absolutely true. 

Johan: And then there was a moment, you were ready. 

Magnus: Yeah, and I mean, I think, and then also mixing it up the right way between having a certain seniority of people and just really fresh people that come straight out of university, lots of interns, like lots of people that are just eager to learn and test. That’s also been a good mix. 

Johan: And then at a certain moment, you started to realize that you needed extra funding, right? You probably invested some of your own money into the company. I watched you pitching at NOAA, I think in 2018, right? With a good pitch for all the investors. Didn’t happen to be there, but what was your learning as an experienced entrepreneur? In raising funding in those years, because it was a different time than we are today. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Also to the founders who are listening right now. 

Magnus: Yes. Yeah, this is also a big difference between the tech space and what we were trying to do. Because I mean, since my background was tech and I actually found it quite easy to raise money in that space. Typically you would pitch to 10 VC funds and you would get two or three that were entrusted and then that was it, you didn’t have to do more. Or in some cases, they would be contacting you.

Raising Funds

Magnus: In our space that’s definitely not what happens. So we had to reach out to about a hundred fans. And most of them were simply just limited. They would not invest in anything related to hardware. I would say like 90% will not invest in hardware. And even consumers. So it’s a lot like you have to take an enormous amount of rejections.

The other problem is that a lot of them were actually interested in talking to us because they really liked our mission. But then it was always the same thing. Sorry, our investment criteria don’t allow us to invest in this. I tried with my boss so we realized it was a waste of your time. So actually one of the key learnings there was to make sure that you ask the right questions to the investors from the beginning. If you don’t invest in a spaceI understand, but don’t waste our time.

And also the other thing was ask: who do you know? That’s how we ended up getting Bluewater as an investor and also Jabe or other investors. It was introductions from people that we spoke to. And people are really open about that. If they take the time to speak to you and you ask them, you know, who else do you know that might be interested? If they’re not interested themselves, typically they’re happy to make the introductions.

And those warm introductions, they always respond. So whereas the cold, like when you reach out to VC fans by cold email or their contact forms, maybe one out of four responses. Whereas if it’s an introduction, you will get a response every time. So that is a rule. 

Anke: And have you ever considered doing crowdfunding? During 2013, 2014, I was with Pebble, which sold hardware consumer devices. And we went on crowdfunding, which was like first a 10 million round and then 23 million from the community, basically. This was obviously in the US where Kickstarter is a bigger thing than in Europe, but has that been a thought during that period? 

Magnus: Yeah, so we actually did an Indiegogo campaign, but I think we raised 20,000. The limitation was that our core market from the beginning was Spain. And that’s very limited. But you’re right, if it had been in the US, I think there would have been a massive opportunity there. I would have focused a lot more on that. And the same thing with angel investors through these kinds of platforms. Because we could see that a lot of customers were interested in investing in us. But again, you’re much more likely to be able to raise money through that in the UK, US, or Australia in certain markets. Then maybe in Southern Europe. 

Johan: And one last question I think on the funding indeed, because you raised your series A with Blue Water Group at that time. You’re a very experienced entrepreneur and you probably know all about the risks in having a strategic investor early on board and especially in an exit later on. How did you deal with that? Because for us as a VC that’s always an important point to limit that kind of risk. 

Magnus: Yeah, in this case, it was kind of easy because their investment fund was completely separate from the core business. So we didn’t consider that to be a problem. But otherwise, I agree. We had conversations like that where we said, no, we don’t want to do it. 

Johan: Good to hear. I have a lot of questions about that, but that’s for another occasion. Then let’s go to the exit also considering the time, right? What was the moment Magnus that you started to realize it was about time to sell your business? What was that inflection point? 

Magnus: Yeah. So it was probably towards the end of 2022. Part of it was that I was not the CEO from the beginning. Because during this time I had my first kid and then my second kid and I knew this was going to happen. I really didn’t want to run a company at this time. I wanted to have someone else managing the business. And we had a great woman running the team, a super good CEO.

But after a few years she said: I want to continue to run this business, but I don’t want the pressure of continuing to raise money. I just want to focus on profitability and do it my own way. And if you’re okay with that, I will continue. If you’re not okay with that, then you know I’ll leave and do something else and let you find someone else to run it. And because our ambitions were really to grow and do something big, we had to make a shift there. And then we brought in an external CEO for a year and then he also decided to leave. And suddenly there was no one to run it. We could not hire another external CEO again. So then I said: fine, I’ll take over but one of the conditions for this is that we need to find a way of making sure that we have a stable future, something that works.

Capital-Intensive Business

The other consideration was that it’s actually a very capital-intensive business because of our product being hardware. So for example, if we receive a retail order from a store in Germany who buys 10,000 products, then that might mean that we have to make an order to our factory for 300.000-400,000 US dollars. That have to be paid straight away, while we get paid six months later. So you have very long payment periods.

And this meant we would have to continue to raise money constantly. And the VCs are not very keen to fund that kind of business. So it just meant that if we wanted to continue to grow in that segment, we had to find a different type of ownership structure. So those were probably the main two considerations.

And then the third actually was that we were doing pretty well, we had fairly good numbers and you never know when something happens. Like, what if there was another COVID that would hit us or something like that? The first serious startup that I was involved in, a Swedisch web hosting company, we got offered a hundred million US dollars for the business in February 2000. 

And then one year later, we gave away the business because our board wanted a little bit more money. So we were a bit greedy. So the other consideration here was that if there’s an interested buyer that is willing to pay a price that is acceptable to you and that you feel that the business will continue and there’s an upside and all of that… Then sometimes you just say: great, let’s do it! We succeeded. It’s fine. 

Johan: Especially in this case, you had an investor on board. How did these talks go? Because I can imagine because they are already an investor. They saw that indeed the first CEO was leaving, who wanted a more profitable business. Then the second left and you took over. Did you also reach out to other potential buyers or was it a set deal? 

Magnus: No, no. So we had two other bids that made it possible to find the right price in this conversation. Otherwise, it would not have been possible. 

Johan: Yeah, it is. And how did you do it? 

Anke: And were you leading the way or did you work with a corporate M&A like an external party doing the work for you? 

Continuously Building Relationships And Creating Options

Magnus: No, I led the way because during the journey we had been speaking to so many companies that were interested. It was just a question of the right timing. So I think this is also something that you learn maybe after a few startups. That you want to talk to lots of people during your journey and keep those doors open. So you never say no. You might tell them not now, but you keep updating them and that’s what we did. 

Anke: This is such an important insight. I think we’re hearing this over and over. This is such an important insight that it’s not like in the last few weeks before the acquisition, it’s basically years of building up relationships and creating options.

Magnus: The other companies also knew that there was a pretty big chance that Bluewater would outbid them.

Johan: Isn’t that the risk because I was referring to that also Magnus. That indeed having a strategic investor on board who has the first right always. Did you experience that in the sales process? That you had a strategic investor on board? So if somebody else would put the price down, then existing investors could outbid them? Was that what you experienced on that end? 

Magnus: Yeah, but I mean in reality you always have that situation though that someone can outbid you.

Johan: I agree, only in this case they were already a shareholder, right? So they had that internal insight and normally they don’t have that internal insight, right?

Magnus: That’s true. No, like the question came up. But again, because the teams within Bluewater were separate, so actually the person that was on our board was not involved in the Bluewater Core business. He basically said, I have no insights into the core company. My only goal is to make the most out of this investment. So he did not have any goal at all of acquiring us. So I think that helped. 

You need to play people right. And also it really helped that we had another VC on board because they were just interested in getting the best deal out of it. So Christian from Jabea was extremely helpful and useful in the process. He was the one that was leading the way with me and Bluewater took a very hands-off approach on that. 

Anke: Can you give us some insights into what he did? For others listening to this? Why was this person super helpful in that process?

Magnus: He tried to take the position of a buyer towards me. So, you know, when we were going through the pitch calls and the presentations, he was the one that was criticizing. Asking the hard questions. Pushing, instead of being the supportive seller. So that’s great when you have a friendly person that actually really questions you. Which means when you go into the meetings, you’re well-prepared.

I think preparation is just so extremely important. And in these situations, it’s hard because maybe you only have three big chances. And if you screw up one or two of those by not being properly prepared, maybe the first one that you go into is the one that would have been the potential buyer. And you were not prepared because you didn’t really know what questions they were going to ask. So I think preparations are extremely important and that was one of the most helpful things here. 

Anke: And from my understanding, how long was that process? Was it weeks? Was it months? 

Johan: Interesting to hear. 

Acquisition Phase

Magnus: And I think it was about three months to get the bids. Then it took another three, four months to close it. And I think that’s also something that I’ve seen in a lot of startups that have failed and collapsed. Just because of the timelines. Because they didn’t consider the fact that you have to have a cash runway that lasts for much longer when you’re going through a selling process. And you get into difficult positions when you have VCs that might not want to continue to put in loans and so on. But that worked out well in our case. 

The fastest process I’ve seen, was in three months. But I think in most cases it takes much longer. Especially when it’s corporates who are selling the big campaign. 

Johan: Okay, I’m thinking out loud. Anke, should we go to the valuations? Is that an idea? The guesstimation, because Magnus, as you probably know, somebody on our team makes a valuation. I’m looking it up right now. Is it Kisha, because you’re listening with us, is it possible Kisha to play the recording of Tim, because he already recorded it? 

The Valuation Of TAPPWater

Johan: I have to look it up in a little bit, because I closed all my tabs. Let me look it up. Okay, TAPPwater, here it is, yes. Shall I read it out? Perhaps it’s good, right? In September 2023, Bluewater Group, part of Bluewater AB, the Swedish VC and PE investment company announced the acquisition of TAPPwater. When assessing this deal there are two things to consider.

First, the business model is quite special as we are talking about consumer hardware that issued a subscription base. And secondly, is Bluewater’s previous involvement in the acquisition as they participated in the previous funding rounds of TAPP, which might also have an impact on a competitive officer in the M&A process. So let’s look at previous exits in the consumer water industry to check for the multiples paid. 

One example is the acquisition of SodaStream by Pepsi and Co. in 2018 for a total of 3.2 billion USD. They were bought at a last 12 months revenue multiple of 5. Well of course the SodaStream recurrency is higher, the frequency, but also it was acquired at a different timing of growth and of course a higher brand value was also attached to it.

Another company that was acquired in the water filtering industry was the Austin-based Aquaziana by Ayo Smith Corporation in 2016. Aquaziana serviced 200,000 clients with 100 employees, and the revenue was indicated 44 million USD. The acquisition price was 87 million, and two times the revenue multiple for this acquisition. TAPP mentions on their website that they serve 100,000 customers. Which, if we assume, the average spent per year is 90 euros based on the product price would bring the annual revenue to 9 million euro. If we apply a two-and-a-half times multiple on the revenue then we estimate the exit valuation of TAPP would be 20.5 million euro.

The second point for the valuation estimation is the investment of Bluewater Group into TAPP in 2021 with 2.6 million euro. If we calculate it with an average 20% dilution at that point, then the company would have been valued at 13 million post-money back then. And if we assume a 60% increase in valuation two years later, with a comfortable growth at that point of exit, this would be the valuation of 21 million euro.

Therefore, the summation of this exit would be between 20 and 22 million euros. 

Johan: Very curious to hear your thoughts on it. 

Magnus: So if it had been in 2021, you would have been spot on because we actually had offers exactly around that number. But because it was 2023 the final number is a bit lower. But it’s not too far off. So I think the big thing that happened, and this is obviously a lot about timing. So the B2C space had a big drop in valuations generally in 2022, 2023. 

Johan: Oh wow. 

Magnus: And then just the general investment climate valuations went down. But I think that’s like it’s the kind of things that you can’t do anything about. You just have to accept that valuations are independent of what you do. Sometimes they’re too high, sometimes they’re too low.

Johan: You never know, you always know afterward, right? 

Magnus: Exactly. But yeah, it’s a good estimate and valuation of the business. 

Johan: Good to hear. Thank you for that. 

Anke: When you’re talking about timing and momentum, some things are out of your hands. There’s also so much luck involved, I guess, like COVID. Looking back now, after all these companies that you started, could you share one or two key insights that you learned throughout the years? 

Having a Goal In Mind

Magnus: Yeah. I do think that it’s really important in your head to have some kind of goal. So you might not want to communicate it to anyone, but you should at least know yourself. What will make you happy if you receive an offer? Also because of the fact that something could happen. I think it’s great to have that figure in mind because, what would make you satisfied? And then maybe if you get the offer, even if it comes before you had planned on it, it can be life-changing for you. If you’re 30, 35, it can really create a base for the rest of your life.

But it can also be that you don’t care. That money is not important for you. And if it’s not, then just keep on going. Why exit? If you love what you’re doing? So it’s really important to put these things into perspective. You know, I’ve had a philosophy that I want to change my career completely every 10 years. I want to do something completely different. And I know that if I had done something in the tech space, I’m sure I would have been much like the chances of success would have been much greater. And the valuations are much higher and so on.

But I wouldn’t have learned as much as I did in this case. I learned so much more by doing something completely different. And also going into a space where not many people want to do things. They just won’t invest a lot of money into this space. It’s hard to change human behavior, it’s hard to develop hardware. There are so many things.

So I think we also need people that have been successful in the tech space to go into completely different businesses and try things that people might not want to do. because of the much higher risks. But on the other hand, the reward in terms of the impact you can have in the world is much greater as well. 

Anke: Yeah, the crazy ones. Maybe as a last question from my end, especially when you’re talking about every decade changing what you do. I looked up your 2023 predictions waiting now for the 2024 predictions from your end. What is next for you? 

The Next Step

Magnus: So right now I’m really focused on becoming part of Blue Water Group. I have a commitment to continue to run the company for the next couple of years. So I’m completely focused on that. But you know, I do see enormous opportunities in the AI space, of course, like everybody does. Especially in changing old businesses. So much of the AI space is focused on new and exciting stuff, where I see the opportunities to change businesses that are 30, 40 years old in the industrial space, family business and so on. Especially in Europe, because we need to become more competitive. There’s such an opportunity to improve things in Europe. That’s probably where I would look. But I have not decided on anything at the moment. 

Anke: Very interesting, totally with you. Johan, maybe a last question from your end. 

Johan: No, it would be great to have you on the show again in about a decade, right? Probably with a great exit, a great story like we heard today. So really, thanks for your time, Magnus. Really, really enjoyed talking to you and thanks for giving all the insights to our listeners, right? Especially from an experienced entrepreneur who is learning every day and still practicing. I think we always like to do things like rehearsing pitches. So really great to hear these kinds of insights, Magnus.

Magnus: Thank you very much, I loved your questions and thank you for having me on your show. 

Johan: Yeah, thanks a lot. Enjoy. I hope you jump in the water later today, but probably you do, right? If I understand you correctly. Okay, enjoy today. Okay, thanks a lot. Cheers. Bye bye. Bye bye.