Throughout the episode, Dewi candidly shares the challenges she faced as a founder, from navigating the complexities of running a business with her spouse to overcoming cash flow issues caused by delayed customer payments. She also discusses her transition to the CEO role in 2018 and the strategic decisions that followed.
One of the most significant moments in Dewi’s journey was the decision to sell Flow Pilots in 2022. She provides an honest account of the factors that led to this choice, the importance of finding the ideal customer profile, and the emotional and professional challenges that accompanied the transition period.
This is what we discuss during this episode:
- Align your company’s services with its core DNA to ensure long-term success and growth. 💡
- When considering an exit, prioritize finding a partner that can provide the best conditions for your team’s development. 🤝
- Have a solid plan for your own future before leaving your company to avoid feelings of panic and uncertainty during the transition. 🧭
As always – hosted by Peak’s very own co-founder and managing partner Johan van Mil and Anke Huiskes founder & managing partner of NP-Hard Ventures 🕺🏻🕺🏼
You can find the episode on your favourite podcast platform, linked below. And, if you are truly interested in listening to the big exit of specific founders – reach out to us so we can invite them for the next episode!
Spotify Podcasts
Apple Podcasts
Youtube
You can find the transcribed version of the episode below:
Anke Huiskes (00:00.974)
Hi, Johan So we just finished the conversation with Dewi, who after 12 years sold the company to ACA, another IT company in Belgium. Interesting story, because they started as a husband -wife company, then separated. She took over the CEO role and then really, really did an amazing job in finding the right acquisition partner.
Another spin of the story that at least I have not learned about, so many insights from me. What do you think?
Johan van Mil (00:36.447)
Yeah, I agree. Especially, let’s say that situation with the relationship, I think you was also very transparent on that. And we see it a lot, right? That husband and wife start a company, right? And that’s for us as investors, it’s a big risk. So I think it’s interesting to hear. And also, I think the space that they were attacking at that MI because it was an app development company, it’s also not a very big company. They were when they were sold only 25 per year. And at that time, you’re not really big. And then at that time, it’s also key.
What I liked a lot what she shared is finding the right partner for that. Because I think what she also said is if you want to sell your company, how do you assess the company which buying you because of course your staff and your company will be integrated or not integrated in that company. And I think that match should be really great. So I think it’s great what she shares also on that end. And also let’s say the struggle that she had because in between she was of course bought by another company and also how she handled the process herself. That’s I think very impressive because
running a company, not a sizeable company on the one hand, and secondly, convince your existing shareholders and of course, sell your company to a new, let’s say, buyer at the same time. So I think really impressive how she shared that and how she realized that exit also. So great insights indeed.
Anke Huiskes (01:50.798)
Yeah, let’s dive in.
Johan van Mil (00:47.299)
Yeah, okay, thank you. Starting a company that’s easy, keep on growing a company that’s harder, but selling your company, well, that’s a whole different story. In the Big Exit Show, we lifted the curtain of secrecy about selling your businesses by learning from ambition and successful founders who’ve been on this roller coaster. Our host, venture capital investors Anke Huyske, who is the founder and managing partner of MP Heart and myself, founder and managing partner of Peak, will help you on this exciting story.
And today we’ll speak with Dewi van de Vyver from Flow Pilots. Dewi is from Bornem, also Master Communication at the University of Antwerp, where I also studied by the way. And she also took a management course at the Vlerick School of Business She went to work with Prime Minister at that time, Guy Verhofstadt and led the Young VLD National.
Afterwards, she worked at the Ghent University still as a communication and project manager at Fortis Venturing and Niscayah among others. In 2011, she co -founded Flow Pilots and became its CEO in 2018. In September, 2022, she stepped down and she’s now the founder of EFFEX a platform for design of experiments. Welcome, Dewi
Dewi (02:13.446)
Thank you all, thank you.
Johan van Mil (02:17.219)
So there we have it. Can you? sorry.
Anke Huiskes (02:17.582)
Shall we start with the beginning? Because 2011 is when you co -founded the company, which is 12 years from now. And later you stepped over to be the CEO. Shall we start with the beginning of how the team came together and you came up with the idea?
Dewi (02:39.974)
Yes, absolutely. I think the thing was that when I met my ex -husband in 2006, there was actually from the beginning the idea, the common understanding that we did not like the way computer programs were designed, that often they were very technical.
and not very user friendly and that most of the time they were like, it was like, yeah, the engineers just thought of something and then they just coded it and you just as a user had to try to find your way into their mind. And so at a certain point, yeah, a lot of things came together. I did in evening school, a bachelor in graphical design.
to understand better how you would design things and how you make things better from a user perspective. And he got more questions also about building applications for iPads and for phones as a consultant. And so at a certain point, we met two developers.
who are also like having a small company where they were also searching for new projects. And they will work with them together on a big project for a pharmaceutical company to make an application for them. And actually from that point, yeah, their flow pilot originated because yeah, all the interests of all the different people came together and also the market demanded for more mobile applications.
And so our first baseline was immediately that we need a mobile application is not a mobile strategy because wanting just like a computer program to be in or to, yeah, just to have it just for the mere sake of being able to say that you have a mobile application was not something that we confined in.
Dewi (04:56.006)
And yeah, that was how we found it. That’s how we started. And that’s the line that we kept all the years that came afterwards.
Johan van Mil (05:10.019)
Cool. And how is it to start, because you mentioned, right, that you started with your husband. How is it like starting a company with your husband also, if I may ask?
Anke Huiskes (05:10.446)
and I’ll see you next time.
Dewi (05:17.574)
Yeah, it was easier than starting a relationship.
Johan van Mil (05:22.243)
I can’t imagine, but how do you do that? Because I can imagine, it’s also hard, right? If you have a relationship also together, I probably run a household and also have it as your business, right? How do you manage that? How do you…
Dewi (05:30.538)
Thanks.
Dewi (05:36.934)
Well, yeah, that’s the thing that the difficult part was indeed the household and the fact that we had two little children and building a house at the same moment. But like the business itself, because we knew where we wanted to go and why we founded it, it kind of, how you say?
Okay, it was difficult in the sense that we still needed to find the customers and to, of course, like find money sometimes and customers did not always pay. And so that part was definitely searching, but it was indeed more the, I think the combination made it very hard because, you know, one of us and most of the time, of course, it was me in the beginning had to sacrifice.
working time for attending to the family. And that did raise conflict because I was ambitious too and I also wanted to do things and sometimes time was scarce. So therefore the fun, the joke that it was more difficult to have the combination and do the business.
Johan van Mil (06:52.771)
Yeah, I can imagine. And at the time that you started, let’s say app development was really kicking off at that time, a lot of companies, let’s say throughout Europe, kicked off at that time. What was, let’s say, from your end, the real differentiation and the real thing that you did different compared to the other app development companies which you saw a lot of popping up at that time?
Dewi (07:18.118)
Well, definitely, as I said, the fact that we, from the beginning, were very focused on the mobile strategy. The strategy that was behind the mobile application. So we kept away from developing games. Of course, we did some, but actually that was really the minority of it. Most of the time it were really business applications where we really improved.
How is it the way of working? We immediately also thought of how would it be integrated change management, talk to IT to understand how it would be organized within the enterprise application landscape. And that was really new at that time, because now if you would talk to enterprises, everybody has, of course, like an enterprise architecture.
But at the time in 2011 and 12 and 13, when we talked about those things, that was still like if we talked to IT and asked like, how are we going to be integrated and maintained and having service contracts and those things, it was really regarded novel and something that a lot of companies were not yet taking into account yet. That also with applications, you have to
Anke Huiskes (08:35.31)
Mm -mm.
Dewi (08:36.582)
think ahead and think like, when will you need like a refactoring or you will need to have, of course, security, one factor authentication, two factor authentication, like, you know, when do you switch to more secure measurements? And yeah, that were things that we took into account from the beginning that made us often difficult, of course, in sales conversations because we were
like more expensive, but in the end, the ones that did work with us always saw the benefit of having a complete price instead of like parts, a partial price, and then had to pay up later on. And I think in the, what is happening today with artificial intelligence is a little bit, I feel the same than with the mobile applications at the time is that everybody wants to start it. They all think that it’s going to, how do you say?
raise efficiency and that they can, fire a lot of people because AI is going to take over a lot of jobs, but one forgets that actually the jobs will, that will be replaced. It will, will go away. We will be replaced by other kinds of profiles because just like mobile applications needed to be updated and secured and to be checked whether they were still working properly. You will have to do the same with artificial intelligence.
Johan van Mil (09:51.971)
Okay.
Dewi (10:03.974)
systems to see whether they’re still working properly and being maintained and not being hacked or still giving output that you desire. And that was what we did differently.
Johan van Mil (10:06.019)
Thank you.
Anke Huiskes (10:16.43)
And then we, during that time, like what was your ideal customer profile and did they change over the years because the types of companies also changed?
Johan van Mil (10:19.317)
Yeah.
Dewi (10:26.95)
Actually, our ideal customer profile did not change over the years. It is more the rigidity in which we search for that ideal customer change. Like in the beginning, sometimes you do just need the project and you still take up on a project where even if you think maybe it’s not in our DNA,
Johan van Mil (10:42.447)
you
Dewi (10:56.294)
All right. Yeah, but it’s, it looks easy to do, so we will do it. And it always in the end, bite us in the ass because if you work for customers that do not fit your culture and do not fit your ICP, that means that you always have to, yeah, wiggle yourself into a thousand turns or something. Yeah. That’s, that was like a literal
Johan van Mil (11:07.383)
you
Dewi (11:22.982)
translation of a Dutch saying. But yeah, and that’s the thing. If you have to try to fit into a box that’s not yours, that’s very difficult. It always costs you money. It costs you energy. Your team’s not happy. You’re not happy. Customer is not happy. So our ICP from the beginning were big corporations with a decent IT structure who had also an
Anke Huiskes (11:28.046)
Yeah.
Johan van Mil (11:28.19)
You
Dewi (11:49.382)
enterprise architecture and who understood the importance to have a partner like us that also took into account the strategy of the company and also took into account the change management. We talked with the people that actually had to use the application and also looked really like how were they going to implement the application that we were building throughout their work stream throughout the day.
when is the point that you have to think about picking up the application and using it, and where in your chain of thoughts you would actually have to remember it. And those are, it looks, if I explain it, it looks, it seems obvious, but it isn’t if you’re starting to work on something. And now for instance, with ethics, that’s also something that,
is a very peculiar problem to find out when does your user need to think of you and your application to be able to use it and how is it going to be integrated into their workflow.
Johan van Mil (13:02.403)
And I can understand why, because you have, let’s say, a business model where you’re not building, let’s say, direct software, but you’re building, indeed, apps and you help them with strategies. It’s more a consulting business model. So it’s also, I think, the reason why my colleague who prepared the exit valuation couldn’t find anything on funding, because probably you didn’t raise anything or not, let’s say, not a specific big amount. You had a commercial job before also, you started together with Two founders How did you, especially
Dewi (13:22.47)
Yeah.
Anke Huiskes (13:25.294)
you
Johan van Mil (13:29.475)
finance at early stage of the company, right? Because then in search for clients, as you mentioned already, it’s what I learned also myself as an entrepreneur, it’s the hardest phase, right? To start kicking off your company. How did you fund that early start of the company? Also for our listeners to hear how it’s working.
Dewi (13:44.166)
Yeah, with savings. Yeah, that was painful, but it was in being with savings and with loans. And yeah, that was hard and actually something to try to, especially the loans, to avoid as much as possible because yeah, you pay the interest as well. And I think…
Johan van Mil (13:47.107)
you
Dewi (14:13.542)
At Flow Pilots, the problem was that it was not that we didn’t have customers. The problem was the timing that the customers paid. And so at a certain point, I did went to talk to our customers, a couple of the big ones to say like, okay, listen up, this is not going to, we’re not a bank for you. We’re a small company and it’s actually not fair that you’re a big corporation and that you’re taking this kind of like…
extended loans on us and paying on really like really long terms because we had to fund actually that timing that they were not paying. So that are things that you know in the beginning you’re happy that you have a customer and at a certain point you realize this customer is a very good customer but also on the other hand like
Johan van Mil (15:00.707)
you
Dewi (15:08.358)
a problem customer when they really pay late because you’re taking the burden. And so negotiating those things is very important as a founder and to really stick to your time of payments and making sure you have revenue coming in at a decent pace. But yeah, that was painful.
Anke Huiskes (15:29.998)
And maybe to double click on that, so to put it in a timeline, and maybe you have to like rethink deep because it has been a while, but for the listeners, can you basically put it in different stages? So when you started in 2011 with like money from the bank or from your like savings to what was the moment that you actually started making profit to the moment that you started expanding the team?
Johan van Mil (15:30.371)
Yeah, that’s the –
Anke Huiskes (15:58.318)
to know months, years in order to like, wow, we’ve got a scalable business, money flowing in, we’re on a good track.
Dewi (16:06.726)
Yeah. The problem was not that we didn’t have customers. So actually from the beginning, we have never had a problem with being profitable. The amount of being profitable, that’s something else, but we never had a problem with profit. We had a problem with cashflow. That was the thing.
Johan van Mil (16:32.451)
Yeah, because you have to pay. Sorry.
Dewi (16:35.558)
And that is also painful because at certain points, if you’re minus 300 ,000 euros because loans are going, you know that your customer still need to have big invoices coming in.
You know that they’re coming, but you still have to pay the wages and then there’s like holiday wages and then there’s cars and then, you know, there’s the office and it goes down, down, down. But you’re not seeing the up. That’s the point where it’s painful. But we had a customer from the beginning and we grew also from the beginning. I think we were…
one year in not even one year, I think six months when we had our first employee. And then, yeah, we did grow actually like rather steady with three, two, three people a year. Yes, that will be, yeah. And we also were a learning company. So we also had a lot of interns. That was also a specific strategy because we like to…
have those interns because they brought in from the university or from the college like new languages, new methodologies. They then saw new ways of coding or new programs, for instance, in which they could check code. Because now, of course, everybody knows Docker and everybody knows how you can check your code with certain programs. But in the, yeah.
In the beginning it wasn’t there and so it was always nice to have interns that came from school and then brought in new ideas and new methodologies.
Johan van Mil (18:28.707)
What is the moment that you, because you started as a COO, as a co -founder, and first a COO role, and at a certain point you also took over that CEO role. When was that in time, and what was the reason for you also to take over that role?
Dewi (18:42.342)
Yes, so the thing is that I don’t mind to play a second role as long as I have the feeling that the way things are going is good. But at a certain point I felt like the ideas and the way we’re heading forward kind of like came to a…
a point where there was not that much energy anymore in my co -founders and I was at that point also already divorced. And so we had a conversation amongst each other. At that point, there was already a co -founder that was already gone in 2017. And so we had to have the conversation like, you know, what is everybody’s ambition? What does everybody want to do? How you want to proceed? And then, you know,
I still had energy and I still had a lot of ideas where I wanted to go and ideas for the company to let it grow and ideas also for more marketing campaigns and also new customers, what kind of customers I wanted to look at. And yeah, that’s how we actually had that conversation. And then in the end, I stayed and the last two co -founders left the company.
And that’s it. That’s how I, yeah.
Johan van Mil (20:06.627)
And at that time, and perhaps good for the listeners to understand also, because I think in 2017 the company has been taken over or had another, let’s say, majority shareholder, another situation there by Seapal Shoubrooke, right?
Dewi (20:17.894)
Yes.
Yes, indeed. Yes. And that was indeed, there was already a point where energy was, where we, two things. So first of all, like, you know, you felt that with the, with the co -founders, there was like, we were at that point six years in.
And yeah, and then that’s the point where I also got divorced. And so two co -founders that separate was also, of course, not so easy for the company. And you have that question like, where are we going? You know, what are we going to do? And at that time, the vision of to partner with Sipal Schaubroek was a choice from the perspective that we already built a lot of applications for governments.
As you can see, we knew that government would digitalize more and more and that applications would become something that would become a part of the enterprise architecture also of governments and that we would have mobile applications to help you as a citizen to manage your documents. And so that’s the link with Sipa al -Skoubroek.
And that indeed gave already the opportunity for one of the founders to already exit and for the others to stay a little bit longer and to help also to do the transition. And that’s the reason indeed why we went with Sipal Skoubroek because…
Dewi (22:02.31)
You also want to, it was also a future, a future for the company that we saw that we could expand on.
Anke Huiskes (22:12.91)
Maybe between 2018 and 2022 when the actual… That’s when you left the company, right? Was it also when you gave up 100 % of your ownership or what happened in between these few years when you took over the CEO role?
Dewi (22:28.678)
Yeah, so in 2018, then the thing was that I made a plan together with the indeed with Sipaals Gaalbroek and we looked ahead like, you know, what would we still want to do? We wanted to grow, of course, and also check whether we could expand on those government applications. That was definitely a part, but that went very slow.
That was a thing that I really underestimated. Yeah, like governments don’t really move forward a lot. We did a new exercise at the company as well. So together with my collaborators, we really did the exercise of KKK. But actually, who are we? What do we like to work for? Like do that exercise again on ICP. I told you before that we already had our customer, but…
Anke Huiskes (22:54.478)
from us, yeah.
Dewi (23:19.398)
But to do that exercise again with the whole company was very important to really find our DNA. And what we saw was that again, that part with the big companies that had those enterprise architecture that really like those working applications inside big companies where we could really make a difference for collaborators, how they did their work was a very important aspect of who we were. So that also made us
decide to cut some other customers where we had more, what I would call frivolous applications that were not really serving that cause that my coworkers love to work for. And so we gradually made that shift. And then unfortunately, of course, 2020 we had COVID, but
Anke Huiskes (24:02.35)
The focus, probably.
Dewi (24:15.142)
We had so much work, we didn’t know what to do first and we also started doing more campaigns. I had the opportunity to also be elected ICT woman of the year in Belgium. And that also gave a nice extra exposure to the company as well, to digitalization. And we pushed even more on the importance of change management.
when you do digitalization projects within your company. So it did give me the opportunity to talk even more about the importance of that change management.
Anke Huiskes (24:59.182)
And then the story was also so much bigger, I think, than the actual product that your company delivers. Almost like being a spokesperson. Yeah.
Dewi (25:03.462)
Yes, yes indeed, yes.
Yeah, and it did. That’s what I did from 2018 to also try to expand on that story. Not just to be like a mobile application developer, but really let companies see that digitalization has a big impact on the whole organization and that it’s not just something from IT, but it’s something that should
like be a part of the whole management, that the CEO and the CFO, and so they also have to be involved, of course not on the technical aspect, but understand in what, in how many ways, like a digitalization trajectory really impacts the company on a financial level, HR level, organization level. And so that were things that we always took into account from the beginning was also something that we really advocated for.
Johan van Mil (26:05.667)
And what’s the moment, Dewi that you decided that, let’s say, C -PAL was not the right mother company or shareholder anymore and that you want to go for another path? Can you tell a little bit how that went?
Dewi (26:16.038)
Yeah. So indeed in, as I mentioned, having those government applications went way slower than we actually anticipated. And of course, there was a link between our two companies in the end. You know, that was the initial idea. They bought a small service company that could help them to be more innovative and
more young as well as a company towards new customers. But we felt that to really make that shift, it would take us another couple of years. And at the same time, it was also becoming more and more difficult to, on the one hand, have customers that were big corporations.
And having then the shareholder that was still like in government applications. And then they asked like, yeah, but aren’t you like in government applications? Why are you still like participating in tenders for like corporations? And so the story started to become more and more difficult. And yeah, at a certain point, you kind of make the balance. And that’s what I did in the end of 2021.
I kind of sit down and took a sheet of paper and wrote down like, okay, if this is who we are as a company, if this is what the mother company is, if this is where I want to go, if this is where my coworkers want to go, this is the also, you have to understand that at that point, my colleagues were also like grown up.
Anke Huiskes (27:42.766)
you
Dewi (28:04.454)
with me in that company. And so they also had ideas on where they wanted to grow through and that way they also wanted to know what’s my future inside this company. Are we going to grow with more people? Will I be able to maybe be a team leader and stuff like that? But of course, if you cannot grow, then there’s no team to lead. And so there were things that all these questions and…
Johan van Mil (28:06.371)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dewi (28:32.262)
challenges that laid there. And so I kind of like made some plans and thought about like what would be the best way forward. And went to talk with a lot of people. I’m still grateful for everybody that spent the time to listen to me and to answer my questions in the beginning of 2022.
And then at a certain point I went to talk to the board and said like, okay, look, these are all the options that I have looked into. This is the situation. This is where we are today. And I think that the best way forward is to actually sell us off again to a company where there are these, where we have these,
Johan van Mil (29:20.579)
It’s an education.
Dewi (29:22.342)
Yeah, no, I wanted to say the conditions, you know, where the conditions are there to let this team also grow. Where my colleagues could also expand their knowledge, expand their expertise, maybe become team leader and stuff like that. And yeah, and so of course, because I already prepared very thoroughly, the decision was made very fast.
Johan van Mil (29:37.883)
Thank you.
Dewi (29:50.278)
And that’s the point where I started also, I also had in my head, of course, the companies that I thought were going to be interesting to talk to. And that’s of which I knew that also were thinking of expanding towards Antwerp. And so I went to talk to them. Yeah. And then you like first very silently just to try to understand whether they would be interested or not.
And then at a certain point, you really start with data room and official invitations and off you go.
Johan van Mil (30:24.387)
And you did, one question on that, one last question. And you did that process, if I understand correctly, fully yourself, right? So I’m drafting the paper, had the idea, convincing your board, but also reaching out to the list of companies where you felt there would be a match, right? If I understand correctly.
Anke Huiskes (30:24.398)
So there’s this expression, sorry.
Dewi (30:41.574)
Yes, I did. Yeah. Love that. I thought it was, yeah.
Johan van Mil (30:46.691)
Yeah.
Anke Huiskes (30:49.934)
And when you did the process, did you inform the team or was it something that you actually choose being in a silo?
Dewi (30:57.446)
Gradually. So the initial idea I did by myself, but that was because I really also wanted to make sure that I had, again, I had the opportunity to also, I have a broad network and had the opportunity to talk to a lot of my colleagues, CEOs, to also have a sounding board and to listen to my own thoughts.
and get very like critical and challenging questions back. So that was very good that I had that process already done, you know, before you go to your team, because you don’t want at points like that, you don’t want to have those questions that you’re still trying to answer yourself. You don’t want to do that with your team. So my team…
Anke Huiskes (31:47.214)
Yep.
Dewi (31:51.494)
that did get all the options that I, like the small management team did get all the options that I thought of. And I did ask their opinion with regards to that. And we did talk that through, but yeah, they also are, because the exercise was done thoroughly for them, it was also rather clear what was the best way forward.
And then I gave them time to get used to the idea because that was important as well. Then they were involved in talking to the board. So I did not do that alone. That was something we did together because I thought it was very important that the board understood that it was a joint decision and it was not just like me going solo slim. And they were involved, my management team in every conversation that we had with companies because they…
were going to go forward with the company and I was not because that was something I explained immediately from the beginning that I would not join the handover. I saw it as an opportunity after 11 years to be free again. And so I found it very important that they also liked the
Anke Huiskes (33:11.854)
Mm -hmm.
Dewi (33:18.022)
the company that they would be sold off to and that they would also see that the culture and agreements that have been made, that they were done in a correct way.
Anke Huiskes (33:33.87)
Yep.
Dewi (33:35.654)
And then afterwards.
Johan van Mil (33:36.131)
in that process with your foot.
Dewi (33:40.166)
No, no.
Johan van Mil (33:40.899)
do. Yeah one question because…
Dewi (33:42.694)
No, no, I wanted to say like, and then gradually we did inform then the bigger team in smaller steps.
Johan van Mil (33:53.796)
Yeah, I can imagine that you did it that way. And especially because you, as you mentioned, right, you ran that process fully yourself and also with the caveat, right, that you were selling a company which you were leaving also, right? So I kind of said it’s a very delicate thing. How did you handle that? Also with ETHalks, how many companies did you approach and how did you frame that towards the person that you were speaking to, that you were indeed the CEO, but selling the company where you would be leaving, et cetera. How did you frame that message also to potential buyers?
Dewi (34:24.23)
Yeah, the thing is that when I approached the different companies, yeah, that I first had, of course, like a long list and then made a short list. And then with that short list, I did at that point already like in a consult a team and also the board, they were also involved in long versus short list. And then the…
with the shortlist first, before we actually really emailed them formally, I already had some small conversations, you know, coffees, lunches, to understand whether it would make sense to send them the email or not. You don’t actually want to send an email to a company that actually does not know you, especially for us, it would not have been a good…
case, you know, we want them, you wanted them to already know you. And it’s about being honest, you know, you just like tell them, okay, what’s the, and again, most of the times you like for me, I know the sector. So I knew all my competition companies as well. I knew their challenges as well. So it’s, it’s not, that you contact them out of the blue or don’t know like why they are.
that why they would be interested in buying you. So that’s also interesting to kind of like, you have the narrative, you know that they’re searching maybe for expanding, as I said, to Antwerp or they’re searching for a certain kind of profiles or they’re searching for a new entry into a new market that they do not have yet. So that are the things that you take into account in those conversations. And there’s never two CEOs in a boat, you know.
Johan van Mil (36:21.891)
Edit.
Dewi (36:21.894)
telling them immediately that I would not be joining made it actually easier because they would not have to fill in my position. And that was the narrative.
Johan van Mil (36:36.803)
Okay, clear.
Anke Huiskes (36:37.134)
And now we’re interested obviously in for how much you sold the company for and for that we asked Johan’s colleague to do the math. So let’s bring that in and then we’re asking you to say if it’s a higher, lower or exactly the amount and up to you how much else you want to review. Shall I read it out loud Johan? This part is being cut.
Dewi (36:57.766)
Okay.
Johan van Mil (37:04.163)
Yeah, please.
Anke Huiskes (37:06.254)
Hi, Dewy. First off, congrats on your exit to the ECA group. As usual on the Big Exit show, the exact exit valuation for the acquisition of Flow Pilots was not publicly disclosed. Based on typical industry valuations and the information available online, I came up with an estimate. Flow Pilots, a company specializing in mobile applications and digital transformation tools, had 25 employees at the time of acquisition.
Such companies in the IT consulting and software development sector are often valued based on a multiple of their annual revenues or EBITDA. Pitchbook gave a typical multiple range for small to medium sized IT firms between 1 .5 to 3 times their annual revenue or 5 to 8 times their EBITDA. Given its niche and its strategic fit for the ACA group expansion plans, it is reasonable to assume a valuation at the higher end of this range.
A news article from The Tite suggests an annual revenue of flowpliates of 2 .8 million. A valuation multiple of 3 would suggest an exit valuation of 8 .4 million. Over to you, Demi. What’s the exit valuation of flowpliates 8 .4 million?
Dewi (38:20.582)
It was lower.
Anke Huiskes (38:22.83)
lower anything else that you would like to comment on or
What was wrong in the valuation? You don’t have to name the exact number, but were we close in how the estimation? The multiple was wrong. That’s always good to hear. And maybe, so after, can you take us through the moment that you signed the paperwork and what happened afterwards? Because I heard you just saying like you wanted something about freedom, you wanted to be free.
Dewi (38:35.398)
I think the multiple was wrong. That was used. Yeah.
Dewi (38:43.014)
Yes.
Johan van Mil (38:43.395)
It is.
Anke Huiskes (38:57.518)
But now you’re running a new company again. So like that was like a very short period. So can you tell us about maybe that moment and then what happened after?
Dewi (39:07.462)
Yes, the moment itself is of course very emotional. But I say what happened afterwards was that the transition period that I had foreseen versus what was then in the end agreed with the new company was shorter.
The thing was that I did not anticipate that. That was, how you say, not so much that it was a surprise or something, but if you’re doing such a thing, as I said, I was already busy with it in 2021, thinking, informing customers, stuff like that. So informing potential buyers and stuff like that. So I did not really take into account
Johan van Mil (39:47.079)
you
Dewi (40:02.662)
how I say the future, until then the idea was still that there would still be a significant transition period, but in the end it was decided, as I said, to make it shorter, which was no problem as such, but it did confront me all of a sudden with the fact that I did not really think about what I was going to do afterwards. And then…
Anke Huiskes (40:27.022)
Yeah, and after 10 years or like 12 years building the company. So it’s a big change.
Dewi (40:30.758)
Yeah. And what happened was a slight panic instead of taking the time to, how do you say, it would have been better if I would have had already a plan for myself. So I had had the plan for the company, but not for myself. And that was something I would definitely recommend for maybe listeners to these podcasts that
might be thinking about the same thing is to really have a plan for themselves as well. And either to be really sure to maybe like take a break for three months or something, or to first search for something that they want to start doing afterwards and then take the break or something. But you have to have a plan. And because if you don’t have a plan, it’s really like, it’s, it’s, it’s, for me, at least it felt so unreal to suddenly
Johan van Mil (41:22.719)
you
Dewi (41:28.998)
not have that amount of emails anymore and not so many things to attend to. And you would say like, okay, but didn’t you then take the time off and go on holiday? Yeah, but on the other hand, it does like plays in your head as well. Yeah, but, but yeah, if I’m back from holiday, what am I going to do then? You know, and so I did some interesting yeah, consultancy and then the…
Johan van Mil (41:49.315)
Thank you.
Dewi (41:57.862)
The reason with FX is a little bit the same. So I was contacted to help the team as an entrepreneur in residence to help them spin out of the university. And in that process, I decided to jump with them and found the company. And here we are two years later.
Anke Huiskes (42:26.222)
Again, yeah, again, starting all over.
Dewi (42:28.806)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That’s, yeah, but again, maybe I would have done it all the same, but I think it would have been, yeah, I think it would have been better to have the idea before you really end. Yeah, I would have, it would have been better for me to have that plan before I actually stopped at Flowpilot.
Because that’s the thing in my head, I was still going to be involved until the end of 2022. So, and then it ended in the beginning of October. And so those, yeah, so the void of the two months was, yeah, it was not calculated. I cannot, maybe for some people it’s easier, you know, to be more like, okay, then the two months.
Johan van Mil (42:58.307)
Thanks.
Anke Huiskes (43:02.414)
Yeah.
Dewi (43:25.318)
off start earlier, but for me it was very difficult.
Anke Huiskes (43:30.286)
And I don’t know how it is in Belgium and like I’m thinking here in the Netherlands, but is there some sort of like a peer group or support group or a group of other founders, CEOs that come together quite regularly to talk about like what it is to exit your company? How does life look like after an exit? Like would have that helped you, I guess, in that process of letting go, basically your baby and also hand over employees.
would have been helpful during that time.
Dewi (44:04.102)
I did not have that formal organized, but I did have the, my network of co co co CEOs or colleague, colleague CEOs that I could contact if I needed to. So the problem was not late letting go of my baby. You know, you have already done that process when you start thinking about those things in 2021, by the time you sell the company, you know, you have said your goodbyes.
You have already organized everything and we did a very good job. And I’m still very proud of my team and the way we handled it. But this was like a textbook &A. The whole, the company that we were sold off to got a list of all employees, all there. We did interviews with everybody to ask for their ambitions. So…
The company also knew where everybody was in their mindset, where they wanted to grow to, what we’re still, how I say, worries, fears, ambitions, everything. So, you know, if you are HR in a company that acquires a company and you get that list, it’s gold, you know, because you can immediately start off, you don’t have to start worrying or…
questioning all these employees, you just can’t get immediately on with integrating it inside your company. So I was really certain that things would just work out. And everybody was prepared as well. So we knew who the company was, we had met them. So that was okay. It was more like what would have helped is if… Yeah, to have like…
But that’s not something that somebody can help work out for you, is to have the confidence that being out of rotation for a couple of months won’t, I say, diminish your market value or something. I don’t know. In hindsight, you know, the panic was totally not…
Anke Huiskes (46:27.342)
Yeah.
Dewi (46:27.846)
Real, yeah, not realistic or yeah, indeed, it was not necessary. But still, yeah, again, it was just too, I think too abrupt, I was just not prepared myself. And so I think that that would have been, again, better, I could have prepared that better or people could have like prepared me better for that.
Anke Huiskes (46:38.702)
Hmm.
Anke Huiskes (46:50.254)
Yeah.
Johan van Mil (46:52.195)
And how did you, let’s say, find your new endeavor? How don’t you find your new role now? Because I know that a lot of founders, especially who stop or want to start a company, it’s hard to find it, right? How did you deal with that also from your perspective?
Dewi (47:06.566)
But I was lucky, I’m a part of the network of STARTED at KBC as a mentor. And actually I was introduced by STARTED to the university who were searching for an entrepreneur in residence. And that’s how I got acquainted with the team. And yeah, it just, we hit it off immediately.
we had a meeting, it was going to be two hours, it lasted five hours and two extra days, you know, and off we went. Actually, yeah, of course, it’s not that straightforward, but yeah, there was an immediate click and I really saw immediate potential for the product as well.
Anke Huiskes (47:43.246)
Yeah.
Dewi (47:59.943)
It is a hard market two years afterwards because pharmaceutical and chemical companies with all the economical problems are not the easiest industries to sell to, but still believe in the potential of the product.
Johan van Mil (48:20.291)
here, good to hear that you found it so fast and still are really enthusiastic about it, so really good.
Dewi (48:21.542)
Yes.
Dewi (48:26.406)
But I think if there would be, how you say, ex -founders listening and they would like to do like new projects, please go and talk to universities. They have so many interesting scientific products sometimes on the shelf where they do not found co -founders because yeah, of course, if you’re an academic, it’s very hard to understand like the business value, but…
Yeah, universities are sometimes really like searching for co -founders. So definitely something to look into.
Anke Huiskes (49:00.558)
A good tip I think for the listeners to finish out this conversation with is there anything that we didn’t ask that you would have loved to share before we wrap up?
Johan van Mil (49:00.771)
I have good suggestions.
Dewi (49:10.342)
I think, yeah, one more thing is about the conversation with the company that you might buy or you might sell to. It’s about your own expectations. I often have in &A conversations found that one party sees themselves as being the
the bigger one and then the other one is kind of submitted to that and they kind of like go into the process very passively. And that’s also something that we did with Flow Pilots is to go into the process actively. We knew what we wanted, we knew what we didn’t want. And so when we were talking to potential buyers or interested parties, we also explained what we…
expected from the company that would purchase us. And that was like a conversation, none of them expected, but it was a very important conversation because by explaining what our expectations were from that company, for instance, for employees that wanted to grow and for employees that wanted to become team leader, but also in the kind of the way you worked, the culture you had.
that kind of things. It was immediately also for a company on the other side clear whether it would be a fit or not. And we saved so much valuable time not continuing conversations with companies that said immediately, but that’s not how it works with us. Or no, that’s not how we want to collaborate.
you know, we wanted to purchase you, but you would be still a separate entity, but we wanted to be integrated. And you know, those kind of subtleties are so important. And so a lot of valuable time was, how do I say it, was gained at that point. And also the honesty was also very much appreciated by the other parties because they did not purchase something.
Dewi (51:21.862)
that then afterwards would be difficult to manage or to or where you would have like a lot of people leaving the company because in the end, yeah, the culture fit was not there. So yes, that’s an important one.
Anke Huiskes (51:33.102)
Yeah, such a valid point, I guess, because often like after an acquisition you see that people leaving or like in the end it wasn’t, yeah, it’s not never really successful. But if you do it like so customized.
Johan van Mil (51:47.363)
Strengthens your negotiation position, because they also have to sell them to you. I think it’s also better for the ultimate outcome. It’s a good good a really good suggestion what you do, David. Dewi. for that.
Dewi (51:58.278)
Yes.
Anke Huiskes (52:00.334)
Yep.
Dewi (52:04.966)
Yes. So, and I think that was really also one of the parts that contributed to the success and also the fact that 100 % of the people that left, that went to RCI IT solutions was state, you know.
Anke Huiskes (52:22.318)
Yep, still there. Thank you for sharing all the valuable lessons over a time period of 12 years. I’m still not done with entrepreneurship. You’re like diving right back in. So thank you for your time, for showing up today on the podcast and sharing your lessons. If founders listen to the podcast, want to get connected, are you open for LinkedIn?
Dewi (52:32.422)
No.
Dewi (52:36.518)
Yes.
Dewi (52:40.838)
With pleasure.
Dewi (52:47.878)
Just on LinkedIn, yes. Yep. Yes, absolutely.
Anke Huiskes (52:50.542)
Just DM and you respond. Perfect.
Johan van Mil (52:55.395)
Thanks a lot, Dewi. Great to meet you and great to hear your story.
Dewi (52:59.174)
Thank you, thank you for inviting me.
Anke Huiskes (53:02.19)
Bye bye.
Johan van Mil (53:02.595)
Thank you. Bye.
Anke Huiskes (53:06.062)
Thank you Dewey, we’re closing it off and then now…
Johan van Mil (53:07.875)
Yeah.